Hubspot User Group Meeting March 2018 - London HUG
This is the transcript of a talk given by Ian Redmond, tropical field biologist and conservationist. The talk was given at the HubSpot User Group meeting in March 2018. It was organised by Whitehat, a HubSpot Platinum partner and a leading marketing agency in London.
Ian Redmond, biologist and conservationist
This is not the sort of place you usually find a wildlife conservationist. I've been fascinated by what I've heard before. Clwyd, invited me. I wasn't really aware of what you do, but having seen it, I know now why I'm here, because we are going to do what Dan's ambition is, as much good as you can. He says the universe is a very, very big place. As Douglas Adams famously said: "Space". Very, very big. I'm more concerned with what's known as the biosphere and the biosphere is the habitable base of our planets. People talk about wanting to save the planet.
"The planet is a ball of rock, ain't going to go anywhere, sit round around the sun, but the thin film of air and water in which we live, that's the bit that we need to focus on."
Documentaries don't tell the truth
Now, many of you will perhaps have an interest in natural history. Perhaps you like watching documentaries on the television and you get an impression from documentaries that much of the world is okay. It's fine. One of the reasons you get an impression is because the documentary tends to be a bit of a downer and the commissioning editors and the controllers of the mainstream media don't want to depress you, frightening you, because you might turn over, watch a game show, what's more fun, or some other entertainment, sports, music, drama. The reality of what's going on around you is too scary, too frightening. So it doesn't get onto the mainstream media. By the time I finished, I'll suggest an alternative way that you can inform yourself.
What is the IPBES-6
Last week, representatives from about 100 countries met in Columbia for IPBES-6. You've been throwing lots of acronyms my way, most of which I'm unfamiliar with. Let me ask you, how many of you know what the IPCC is? Yeah. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And one person in a room of people who presumably are reasonably well informed and care about life, it's an unfamiliar acronym unless you're in that world.
United Nations, environment, climate change, big issues, global issues, and we all work on a very local level. IPBES is the equivalent for biodiversity and ecosystem services. So, another collection of words you perhaps don't use a lot. Biodiversity is a possible for nature, for life. All the things that live on our planet's.
Ecosystem Services is what they do for us. And to maintain that biosphere. If we all live in the thin film. People have an idea about our atmosphere, that it kind of goes a long way. And it does when you're standing here looking up and if you climb a mountain. You've to climb a long way before you start running out of air to breathe, get to the top of Everest. You can just about do without oxygen, most people choose to take oxygen. But if you look at that thickness in comparison with the size of the ball of rock, if you think of the ball of rock is compare it to a beach ball like lots of globes in school. If you look at a globe in school and you ask people will estimate how far the atmosphere goes out and they're thinking an inch or two from the beach ball. In fact, it's the thickness of clingfilm compared to the size of the planet. That was like clingfilm on the outside and we live in the clingfilm. That's our bit.
David Attenborough and gorillas
So, I'm talking to you as someone who has had some wonderful experiences in life. The thing I like most about the inbound slides you just be looking at is that it ends in delight. Delight. You want to delight your customers.
"My customers are everyone on the planet and I want to share my delight".
Because when I graduated from university with a very, very mediocre degree, I had the extraordinary good fortune to get the job, the volunteering job, no pay, of assisting Dian Fossey. Dian became famous because her life's work was made into a movie called Gorillas in the mist.
Not only did I eventually get to meet Sigourney Weaver and teach her how to swell like Dian Fossey, how to groan like a gorilla. But while I was working with Diane, I got to introduce David Attenborough to the gorillas. So, if you've seen the Life on Earth sequence, you know, that is the peg on which people tend to hang me. I've done a few other things in the past 40 years, but that's what people remember. And they remember it because David was delighted. Certainly it wasn't planned that Pablo, a juvenile gorilla, would come and sit in his lap and squirm all around and he was trying to talk about the opposing thumb, which is what makes primates different from animals that can't hold stuff.
We have an opposable thumb, very useful, not just we humans, we most primates have an opposable thumb, so that moment of delight of David Attenborough sitting surrounded by gorillas and even being played with, it wasn't so much playing with them, but they were certainly investigating him, was just sheer natural delight and that made a lot of people interested in gorillas.
What is a "being"
If you've had the good fortune to meet not just a gorilla or a chimpanzee and orangutan, even different non human beings, you're familiar with the term human beings, we're all human beings and we tend to think of it as one word, but of course it's two words. Human-beings. You separate them and think: "Oh beings, if there are human beings, they might be normal human beings". How do you define a "being" ? I would suggest someone who knows who they are, have a sense of self. Gorillas, elephants, whales and dolphins have such big brains and complex societies that evolution has given them this power of understanding who they are and how they fit in with their society. They behave in a way which improves their standing in a society which improves their reproductive capacity, which means that their genes will pass on and eventually will end where we are today, with human beings and non-human beings.
A different kind of marketing is needed
So, the human beings are being so successful perhaps because of your wonderful marketing techniques that
"We are depleting the resources of our planets, we're using up the resources of our planet at a rate that is unsustainable".
So we have to kind of scale back and for businesses that are based on growth, "we want to be the fastest growing company that sells socks". Well, that's very commendable, but you have to understand that if your materials you make your socks out of are coming from unsustainable sources, that's not good, and if your company's footprint is greater than the planet can sustain, eventually you're going to run out of resources. You're going to cause a problem.
And because we've always been used to the idea that we are very small beings on a very large planet, our impact is never going to be so great that it's going to change things on a global scale. And that's one thing that the IPCC has pretty effectively demonstrated. At all but the president incumbent in the White House, are largely convinced that we need to scale back and reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and perhaps to look at these sustainable development goals. The United Nations have set out to curb our excesses and live within the energy budget of our planet. Okay. That's a long way from gorillas and it's a long way from marketing, but I'll try and tie these thoughts together.
The scary results of the IPBES
So, IPBES (Intergovernmental Panel on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services) had sixth meeting last week and the conclusion was - which you probably wouldn't have found in the headlines of your papers because maybe it's too depressing or maybe just it's too many acronyms and nobody's really interested - the conclusion is that we're in real trouble. Most of the focus of conservation in my professional life, and I didn't set out to be a conservationist, I'm a naturalist. I delight in nature and I wanted to spend a life study and photographing and filming and getting to understand nature. But the 40 years that I've been doing that has been the 40 years when we've seen animal populations crash and those that have come to a point where they are endangered or critically endangered or disappear, get a lot of attention. And you look at the conservation literature and you see people saying:
"I don't want to live in that world. I don't want my children to grow up in a world where there aren't elephants, because elephants are wonderful".
And I have to agree. Elephants are amazing. And it would be a great shame if our children, our grandchildren lived in a world where there were no elephants. And people think: "Well, yes, they're nice. What a shame it would be to lose them because they're nice". And what people aren't thinking is: "Uh..". If there were 10 to 20 million elephants in Africa, which estimate suggests there were, and now there's fewer than half a million, we have lost 95-97% of the elephants. "Uh..". Now, if you're an ecologist, you study how animals and plants interact with each other. This is where we get to the good bit.
Why elephants are important
I am so sorry I didn't come equipped with my big bowl of elephant poo, because pulling that out is always a good moment in a lecture. But we have an elephant and Archie doesn't produce poo. I did take a picture, which if you go to my Twitter feed, I tweet as "@4apes", "four" as the number, "apes" because I'm both for apes and we're concerned about the four kinds of apes.
You'll see a picture of Archie next to a ball of elephant dung that I took last month. I took photographs last month. I didn't take a ball of elephant dung. I left it there. And I left it there because you think about elephants. They are large animal. They are the largest living land animal and they're herbivores, so they eat plants every day and elephant will eat about 4% of his or her body weight in vegetable matter, and it goes through the elephant and it comes out the other end. That's a lot of sh*t. A lot of elephant dung, of poo, of excrement to the point that if you average out the size of elephants, obviously large elephants eat more and they will produce more poo than small elephants.
But if you're looking at every week, one elephant is producing approximately one metric ton of first class organic manure, which if the elephant has been feeding on seeds and elephants do like to eat fruit pods of acacia trees, forest fruits, they really enjoy. They close their eyes and they're feeding with that trunk and the trunk is like having your nose coming out between your thumb and your finger.
If you're an elephant, imagine you're going into a buffet and while you're chatting you're hand is "Ooh, *sniff-sniff* voulevants. Very nice". Pick it up and eat it. That's what elephants feed. They don't so much look at their food and with their nose, they're actually have got an opposable thumb, but it's on the end of their nose, so they pick it and manipulate things and put them in the mouth.
They do that for much of the day and of course, much of the day they're producing big piles of poo, which then put down nicely into the soil and the seeds that have passed through the elephant have evolved to do that.
If you take a seed from a tropical tree and stick it in compost, it probably won't germinate because they have evolved inside fruit which animals eat. Primates, some birds, elephants, tapir as if you're in Latin America, spider monkeys. It's not just about gorillas and elephants, but the animals that eat the fruit, chew it and scarify the surface of the seeds and swallow it and it passes through the gut, which is very acidic, so it has to be well defended.
That's why they don't grow. If you just put them in the ground, moisture can get in because of this protective coat around the seed, but once it's gone through that system and pops out the other side it's miles from the parent plant. Elephants especially. They disperse the seeds, they disperse more seeds of more species further than any other animal and all those seeds are spread out and they start to grow. Some of them get eaten by somebody else, but that's an ecosystem service.
The elephant is providing to those other species, of herbivores that can't reach the top of the trees, elephants pulled and branches and they get to eat them. The seeds start to grow. They germinate, they don't make it to adult or they can't all make it to adulthood. They get eaten, they get, and it's part of the ecosystem.
The elephants are at risk of extinction
So, I mentioned that perhaps
"A century ago there might've been 10 million elephants and now we've got fewer than half a million."
So 95% of what had been called "The mega gardeners of the forest". All the animals that do this for seeds, we think of as gardeners at the forest. Do you want a bit more information and you've got a spare 15 minutes, watched my TED talk "Gardeners of the forest".
Want to find out on Twitter or Facebook, #GardenersOfTheForest, and that will lead you to lots of articles and videos that explain this and this is one of the things that's coming across from this IPBES report. It's not just that some animals are nearly extinction: "We're going to lose them. That would be a shame because they're really interesting and we want to go and see them on holiday in future". But the work that they do is kind of critical to the functioning of the biosphere and it's not just bigger animals.
Caterpillar's poo to. Ecologist is talk about the rain of fecal droppings in a forest. Lovely concept.
While he's a little caterpillars munching away, and if you can tell all the caterpillars and wave them, you'd probably find the biomass, the weight of those caterpillars, is more than the elephants and they're scattering the poo more effectively.
They're certainly converting leads into nutrient packages which dropped down onto the forest floor. Get used by fungi and microbes and eventually turning back into trees and trees are really important because, well, obviously you know that photosynthesis is the basis of all life on earth. Takes in carbon dioxide, stores the carbon puts out oxygen, we breathe and that feels good. His delightful.
You walk into a forest and you walk around and you got all these trees and arches and the air feels fantastic and it's cool.
Introduction to vEcotourism.org
Last month I had a new toy to play with. I worked with a team called "vEco" (vecotourism.org). I was going to pull it up, but I've got a microphone in my hands. I'll put there perhaps and tie that in because we want people to understand how delightful these habitats are to experience bearing in mind that very few people are actually going to get there and experience it themselves if they live in a city in the developed world.
Some who do well and have some spare money might go on holiday there and much conservation work is dependent on those tourist dollars, but it's a tiny percentage of the population is ever going to experience that for themselves.
So, how do you convey that delight, which I and a few other lucky people get to experience firsthand to other people so that they share your enthusiasm for protecting it? Well, I think the key phrase in conservation is "enlightened self-interest". If you can enlighten people as to why it's important for them, that these things continue, the habitats that were trying to protect, continue to remain healthy, then it's in their own self-interest and the children's interests, in the grandchildren's interests.
"We want to live on a healthy planet".
And one of the things which is coming out of all these ecological studies is that:
- The health of an ecosystem like a tropical rain-forest depends on the animals. And what has come out of the climate talks and all the research that has gone through and informing those talks, the intergovernmental panel on climate change, is that:
- We are not going to win the battle against climate change if we don't win the battle against deforestation, because we need forests all over the world, but especially in tropical forests.
Global Weather Patterns
What you're seeing there is one of the most effective tools for explaining to people why tropical forests matter and why the gardeners are those forests, the elephants, primates, the toucans, are important. What you're seeing is an animation of global weather patterns. Precipitation, the white represents not cloud but water vapor, but of course you can't see water vapor, it's a gas, but go with it. The white is a water vapor and the orange bits other precipitation and what you can't quite see perhaps is in the Congo Basin, it's pulsing. That of here you can see the clock, the hours are whizzing by the days are going by at roughly one day a second, so it's condensing years, precipitation patterns into a few minutes, and the daily pulsing. That's the rainfall. In the Congo Basin, it's a rain forest. You're expected to rain, but rain forests don't just receive rain, they generate rain.
"Evaporate, transpiration, the transpiration of water from the roots and the evaporation from the leaves puts water into the atmosphere."
And my colleagues at the "Global Canopy Programme" at Oxford estimate that a unit area of tropical rain forest is putting 8 to 10 times more water vapor into the atmosphere. Then that same area of the ocean where you think most of the moisture evaporating and that produces weather patterns, which you can track and follow them, look at them, you see these storms going across and then joining the even bigger pump in the Amazon basin, and then you can look at the patterns are going up here and the water, the Midwest of America, and then sweep across the Atlantic and water here. So these weather systems are global and they seem to be driven in some way by this daily rainfall in the three areas of tropical forest, Congo Basin, Amazon, and the more complicated rain forest in islands of Southeast Asia. Interestingly, if you look at a global map of primate distribution, that's where the primate's live, the normal human primates, the human primates all over the spot, but we depend on these global weather patterns.
Why tropical forests are important
Now, I like a glass of wine. I expect you like a glass of wine and whether you like your wine from South Africa or from France, from California, from New Zealand, you can see where that vineyard is getting its rain from by watching this mapping and tracking backwards, you can see the water, that's the water vapor that's going west from Africa to Amazon and then hitting the Andes and sweeping off and coming around and watering South African. The storms are coming across Australia and New Zealand, so we'll lose those global water pumps that are like the three chambers of a global heart, pumping water around the planet. It stops raining in the vineyards.
That's bad news. It stops raining where we collect water for our dams, for our cities. It stops raining where the aquifers, that feed the hydroelectric plants, so even our clean energy starts to disappear if we change these rainfall patterns. If the world continues on its current trajectory and we hit an average global temperature interest increase of four degrees, the computer models of how the climate will change suggests that Sub-Saharan Africa, Amazon Basin and Southeast Asia will become arid. So, we completely screw up the biosphere, the biosphere, as we currently know it will not operate and that will make make life very, very difficult for us.
Ethology and animal behavior
So, that's scary stuff and it's coming out in Intergovernmental meeting in Columbia last week (you can find very little mention of it on the news, perhaps because people don't want to be scared, but we need people to change that behavior). Now, what's really interesting about learning about the HubSpot thing is that essentially you're using "ethology". It is a study of behaviour.
I'm an ethologist. I'm fascinated by animal behaviour. I love to watch them and when I say animal behaviour, we're animals too. So, human behaviour and to learn about animals, particularly big scary ones like elephants and gorillas, it's kind of hard if they fail you. So, the breakthrough that Dian Fossey made 50 years ago, 50 years ago last year since Dian Fossey started her work and changed the human-gorilla relationship.
50 years since Dian Fossey changed the way we interact with gorillas. Gorillas and humans share a common ancestor, not quite as close in evolutionary time as humans and chimpanzees and bonobos and a little bit closer than orangutans. Givens even further, but they're all our cousins.
"Understanding our cousins [gorillas] is fascinating for us because we are very self-obsessed species. We tend to think in anthropocentric ways where humans are at the center."
We are the be all and end all and in most of our lives we humans matter more than everything else, but if everything else suddenly turns out to be important for human survival, maybe that will give people that enlightened self-interest that we want to protect gorillas and elephants in the Congo Basin so that the water pump keeps going and our vineyards keep getting watered, but what a shame that not one penny of the price you pay for a bottle of wine goes back to protect the forests that drive the global weather patterns that water the vineyards.
We have to change our economy
That's a big job and it will involve billions of dollars and you know what happens when people start talking about putting billions of dollars into tropical forest.
It attracts people who are interested in billions of dollars, not necessarily tropical forest and there's a very well meaning UN scheme called REDD+, "Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and forest Degradation Plus". All the benefits you get from doing that, like species conservation and ecosystem services and all that.
In places REDD has worked, but in places it really hasn't because corruption. Humans being human: "Oh, I can just slip that money into my bank account" and the people in the forest, who cares that the least influential people on the planet, indigenous people who live in forests, the furthest away you can get from a capital city where the big decisions are taken and they've lived there forever and it's their forest and they have no document to say it's their forest.
So, they get pushed out by mining companies, by plantations, by loggers. Whoever wants to exploit the resources, and we in the developed world, particularly those of us who were trying to increase our sales are part of the economy that's driving that process.
"I don't want to make you feel bad. I want to make you feel: 'I can do something about that'".
We are part of that problem
So, sustainability, certification, the products that we sell, we need to make sure that that they are from a sustainable source.
Otherwise we're part of that problem, with driving industry and over-consumption that is destroying the biosphere where we live, so he's our self interest that we have to get across. I struggled to get this across to people because the people who most want to help save gorillas are the people who are delighted by them. They're not thinking, well, okay. A family of gorillas. In terms of the ecological impact, it's about the same as one elephant, so 10 or a dozen gorillas.
They're producing about a ton of manure every week to their eating fruit. They don't disperse as far as elephants, but they're second to elephants in terms of seed dispersal, importance in African forest way, you get gorillas and elephants. You'd like me to wrap up? Yes, I will wrap up, but I delight you because you're all very influential people and using these methods that you'll be even more influential. You're building trust with people. I think that's fantastic.
The story of Dian Fossey
I was going to talk about Dian and how she was able to build trust with gorillas. Because until Dian Fossey, almost every gorilla thought that every human was very bad news, very frightening, very dangerous, and when gorillas have frightened, well first of all, they'll just run away, but if the human keeps following them... the Silverback is twice the size of the females, 3 times the size of any of us.
Get a Silverback on a scale there and we three might about equal him in weight and probably take you are 10 of us to equal him in strength. Silverback gorilla is a very big, very powerful, very strong, and they got very long canine teeth so you don't want to mess with them.
Dian Fossey - Occupational Therapists from Louisville, Kentucky - got the gig to go and study them, and because she was used to dealing with children who were frightened and an inward looking, she had methods of winning trust.
She was a tall, gangly woman, very self-conscious, her human self-deprecating too, because of self-consciousness. But when it came to winning the trust of someone who was frightened, she was brilliant and she learned how to win the trust of wild gorillas to the point that now 10 years later when David Attenborough, when the BBC crew came out, they were able to come out with me and see the gorillas and the gorillas didn't run away more than that.
They actually came and interacted with the film crew. Now, if you go and see gorillas in Rwanda, I hope you will please respect the 7 meter distance: we try and keep people seven meters from the gorillas because if you cough over them or sneeze over them, you might infect them with a human germ to which they have no immunity and like more serious for them. So that's an important, you know, the days of baby girl is playing on a visitor.
We have to put a stop to that because there are thousands of visitors now and it's been the success. The one success story in the conservation of species that I'm involved with is the mountain gorilla. Every year at the end of the year, there are more mountain gorillas in the word at the beginning of the year and numbers of recovering because of intense conservation work, and it was Dian was primarily the whistle-blower and the one who enabled that to happen. Every other kind of ape is decreasing apart from the human species.
"Elephants across Africa, across Asia are decreasing and as we lose them, we lose the work they do in that ecosystem."
And as we're increasingly aware for global climate stability, we need those ecosystems. It ain't a luxury. It's not "oh, it'd be nice if you can say some good because we can go and see them on holiday". It's "oh, how many gorillas have we got enough to keep doing the job that they've done to maintain this in climate stability that we're aiming for?"
The Ape Alliance
So, how do we get that across to people, three ways. If I can in the time available 4apes.com is one website. I chair the "Ape Alliance", which is a coalition of about 100 NGOs, "Non-Governmental Organizations" around the world, and we endeavor to carry this message across.
The apes are really important and there are different ways of conserving them and we're trying to change the way people see apes traditionally in the West. We've seen them as as clowns or entertainers or in circuses that selling tea.
Remember this PG tips adverts dressed up chimps. People thought they were hilarious. Those ads and that attitude is still extent in China and Southeast Asia.
Apes are still being dressed in clothes made to do death things in a circus ring and people pay to go and see it, which drives the demand for those babies to be snatched from them. Others have to be killed and if they're in a social group like gorillas and chimpanzees, several animals will die to get a baby to be shoved in a box and shipped across the world so that somebody can watch it in a pair of trousers, look like a funny little human.
"We have to stop that because they have work to do in the forest and because the intelligent social mammals, self-aware beings like ourselves."
The initiative "Bike That Helps Save Gorillas"
So, the "Ape Alliance" is doing this and if you go to YouTube, which I wouldn't do now, and look for the "Bike that helps save gorillas", you will see a nice little add a video which shows you how a pedal power cinema, because the people we need to convert the people who live next to the forest and often they're miles from the nearest power supply, but if you take a bicycle and a generator projector, the kids in the schools can generate the power to see the films and it's wonderful and watching for the first time behaviour on a screen.
They are delighted. They're humans like us and they see something and they are delighted and the parents come into the holes that we show these in are absolutely packed and people pouring through the window and lines of people outside the window looking over the shoulder of the person in front who's trying to see a chink of the moving pictures because they live in a world where there are no moving picture. There is no cinema, no TV.
So, it's really powerful and the message is not "Human, stop doing this", but "wow, look at that!". That's the reaction you get. And Jillian Miller, who runs the gorilla organization, based in Primrose Hill, tells a story about being the back of the hall and one of the mothers is come in with her baby in her arm and she's watching a film of a gorilla feeding her baby and it's obvious it's the same behavior. Crooked the arm, head in here, hold it to the breast.
And she says "Oh, that's my sister!". You don't need someone saying "We must don't kill gorillas". She just see, and her husband was a hunter. She said "Right, I'll be having words with my husband". That's how you win people across. So many people are more sophisticated than that. They've got Internet, they've got the ability to watch videos, but videos are very passive. You sit there and you watch.
Show the real world in a virtual way
So another group that I'm working with that you might be excited by, is introducing vEcotourism.org. This is exciting because here on this website you can go and virtual safaris and if you've got the VR headset... How many of you have used the VR headset? Quite a few of you. Are you gamers? Are you using it to play games? So yeah, I think it's really exciting that people can play games in made up worlds in these and it's so realistic, but we want to use these to show people the real world, but in a way that they can interact with it. So, you go to vEcotourism.org, you can click on take a tour and virtually go there.
If you want to download the apps, we did one app for the United Nations called "Ape App VR" and you can visit all the species of great apes using a VR headset. And we did one with the "Born Free Foundation" called "Gorilla Safari VR", which goes to see the eastern lowland gorillas.
Did all of you watch Gordon Buchanan with the "Gorilla family and me" a couple of christmases ago. A few nods. Yes. Well you find, you find yourself in the forest with golden over here filming the gorillas and see some of the scenes that you saw in that documentary.
Introduction of EcoStreamz
So, documentaries are fine, but as I mentioned at the outset, it's hard to get documentaries about the really serious stuff on air. And this is perhaps the most important thing I have to say. Sorry, because you can all do that. You can make this happen. Ecostreamz.com. "Eco Streamz" with a "zed" because Jim brands flow, set it up is from California and they do things like that. Isn't leaping to. That's definitely the right spelling. Why isn't that leaping into action? I thought that was old hat. I thought nobody did "www" anymore. I thought it was all the "http/thinghy". Anyway, "films and make a difference".
So, people have got used to the idea that they can get their media content in the hand in, on their smartphone, on their Ipad or whatever. But it's all 30 second clips, Bang, Bang, Bang.
What happens if you want to really understand the problem and some filmmakers put his last been into a documentary to bring that issue to you and you want to act on it? Well, there's no way to do that.
Some of the most exciting award winning films that are changing the way that we treat the natural world, if they get onto the mainstream media, it's like 10:00 at night on BBC 4, tiny audiences. So, we've created this website which is an upgrade to a channel so you can watch it on your telly called "Eco Streamz" and whereas people are prepared to pay a subscription for a sports channel or music, we think some people might be prepared to pay to learn what's happening in the world and how they can help and I would really like you to consider subscribing to that. There's the pitch but engaging with it because this can make a difference.
Conclusion: what can we do?
So trying to make the university better place, big task, "The biosphere that's within our grasp".
"We can all visit every part of the biosphere and care about it and if we're talking to people who can't, we can use virtual reality."
We can use the modern technology to inform them so that they are both delighted and it's in their self interest to change that bit of behaviour that might be contributing to the problem.
So certified products, FSC, wooden paper, sustainable palm oil plantations that are not replacing natural forest, marine stewardship council fish. When you go for your fish and chips, don't buy it if you can't be sure that it's from a well managed fishery.
That's what we all have within our power to do because the pound in our pocket, or the dollar in our pocket is what's driving these processes. So, we are the power and I'm so excited to learn about these new methods of reaching people, winning their trust and then delighting them because then we will have a delightful audience and consumers who are using their money to do good rather than being unwitting, unwittingly part of the destruction of our biosphere. That was rather longer than you anticipated. Sorry, there's lots more online, but thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to you.